Helping The Small Stand Tall, Constant Contact Marketing For The Small Business Market

We spend a lot of time talking to young companies focused on the enterprise market, but today we are going to switch things up and look at a company that has weathered the technology storms and is still standing many years later. We are going to talk with them about how they managed all the changes in the industry, and how new technology is transforming their business.

Hey everybody, this is Chris Brandt. Welcome to another FUTR podcast.

Constant Contact was founded back at the dawn of the Internet in 1995 by Randy Parker. The company has gone through many different iterations over the years, and today they provide email, social media and event marketing services to the SMB market. I think their tagline sums it up, "helping the small stand tall." Today we are going to talk with Dave Charest, Director of Small Business Success, and host of the "Be a Marketer with Dave Charest" Podcast, about their story and how modern tools like AI can be transformative for the small business.

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Transcript

Chris Brandt: 0:00

We spend a lot of time talking to young companies focused on the enterprise market, but today we're gonna switch things up and look at a company that has weathered the technology storms and is still standing. We're gonna talk with them about how they managed all the changes in the industry and how new technology is transforming their business. So stay tuned. Hey everybody, this is Chris Brandt, welcome to another FUTR podcast. Constant Contact was founded back at the dawn of the internet in 1995 by Randy Parker. The company's gone through many different iterations over the years, and today they provide email, social media, and event marketing services to the S M B market. And I think their tagline sums it up, helping the small stand tall. So today we're gonna be talking with Dave Charest, director of Small Business Success, and the host of the "Be A Marketer with Dave Charest" podcast about their story and how modern tools like AI can be transformative for the small business. Welcome, Dave.

Dave Charest: 1:04

Thanks so much, Chris. A pleasure to be here. I appreciate you having me on.

Chris Brandt: 1:07

It's always fun to have somebody on who's a fellow podcaster, cuz we can talk a little bit of shop, but, uh,

Dave Charest: 1:13

well, I was gonna say we had a good time, uh, geeking out a little bit before we got started here, right?

Chris Brandt: 1:17

Yes, yes. No, but, but I'm, I'm, I'm interested in hearing, you know, I, I think the Constant Contact story is, is really interesting because 1995 is, Like the big bang of the internet. I mean, that's sort of when the web sort of started for the most part. Um, and, and, and for a technology company that's, you know, really an inter base internet-based technology company, um, that's just, just an incredibly long time to be alive. Yeah. Um, and, and, and, and I think, I think it's cool that, you know, uh, you're, you're doing things to, to address, you know, challenges in the small business market, and I know you've got some good, you know, business tips and things like that, that you can share with us. But before we get to that, um, tell, tell me about like, you know, the journey of constant contact and you know, like how you found your market.

Dave Charest: 2:08

Yeah. Well, You know, I think our founders, you, I've been up with the company for, uh, this year will be September will be my 12th year. Wow. And, uh, yeah, which also is interesting. It's also that longevity in, in the tech history as well. Um, and really I think, you know, one of the things that I think about just in terms of like, personally, you know, I have this passion for helping small businesses, nonprofits, that type of thing. Right. Uh, when I joined, it was blatantly obvious how everybody else there really shared that same passion. It was, it's like, it was like a real thing. And, and so what's kept me there so long is that day-to-day I work with people that share that passion, right? And everybody that is really focused on thinking about how do we provide the right tools and the right insights to um, small business marketers, right, so that they can make progress from wherever they are. You know, the mission has really always been to, to give small businesses the tools that they need to compete against bigger businesses, right? And it's just a palpable thing that's always kind of been there when you started seeing kind of, you know, these things that the bigger companies were doing and using emails, you know, our founders really thought like, Hey, you know, this is something that, how do we make this so small businesses could take advantage of that. Right. Right, right. And that became the thing where, you know, I'm, I'm often surprised at, you know, how a lot of, like the bigger, more enterprise level tools are, you need a whole team to figure out how to use them. Right? Right. And so the challenge was of course, like how do you create tools that are designed for. Small business owners that are usually one person. Right. You know, I, I would say typically we go from like one to a hundred or around that area, right? But like folks that are usually just doing this themselves, who are, I always say, you know, are small business owners, first, marketers by necessity. And so how do we design things that are easy enough for them to use and understand. And so it comes down to, I think recognizing, you know, one, that that's the audience. That there's, uh, varying levels of expertise in terms of marketing when you start to think about it. And so that for sure, you really need to think about one, knowing that audience, designing for them. Um, and, and I think we've always done a great job at one. Like, so for example, internally, I host a monthly customer panel where we talk to our customers and we ask them, you know, about their businesses, the Be A Marketer podcast. I'm talking to those customers as well. Yeah. And it's all about really understanding, you know, what they're trying to get done and getting feedback from them on our tools and, and all of that. Right. And so I think it's being, you know, really into that understanding also too, that that small business audience really. Many times just wants to be able to pick up the phone and get something done and doesn't necessarily have the time to go like search the concept, right? And so another thing we recognized early on is how do we provide that support and then the education, right? So when you're dealing with people that you know, maybe not wearing a marketer's hat all the time, We recognize that, okay, we need to one, be in local communities and showing them how they can take advantage of this, and then providing that guidance and support for people. And then I think just the other piece of it is just then just finding other partners to work with that also are speaking to that small business audience and really being focused there. And I think that's what's really kept us successful for this long, I mean, through the lifetime of the business so far. I mean, we've, we've helped over millions of small businesses, you know, with their marketing, right? So I think. Pretty amazing.

Chris Brandt: 5:40

If you look at the economy, I mean, small business really is the backbone of the economy. I mean, you know, in, in, in the large enterprise sale, you know, world, you, you, you're looking at, uh, all the big companies and the great logos and all that. But you know, really what's driving the economy is, you know, all those, those mom and pop shops, the small businesses that employ so many people.

Dave Charest: 6:02

It's interesting, right? I mean, I don't know what your experience is, Chris, but I, I, you know, when I think about it, I always look to like, you know, where are the places that I go that I really have an enjoyable time or it feels different than just a transaction, right? Right. And it's always those small businesses, right, where you know, you know, I think of, you know, I go to a, a yoga studio, like the owner of the yoga studio, like, you know, the local restaurants, like all of these things. Like particularly nowadays when you think about what's happening, where bigger businesses are really trying to take, I would say take the human element out of a lot of things. And it's gonna be funny that we're talking about a AI here. Right? Right. But Right. But I think it's about using it in the right way. Right. But like it's, they're trying to take so much of the human component out of things that I think it's a huge advantage for small business owners to think about, well, how do we go the opposite way and create these really great experiences for people? Mm-hmm. That they're not gonna get other places. And that's like really the, the magic of it.

Chris Brandt: 7:02

I think by their nature, small, small businesses are, um, resource starved. Right. But they still need a lot of the same tools that, that we've come to know and love. And I think they do get the short end of the stick when it comes to things like support. Sure, yeah. I, I get it. You, you know, like sort of have this passion for small business. Yeah. But I mean like how, you know, it's hard to sell to small business, right? Because Yeah. I mean, and that's one of the reasons why I think, you know, so many people tend towards like enterprise sales and things like that because make one sale, it's a big sale. It might take a long time, but you know, you got kind of everything going in one direction. Whereas with like small business, Especially to be very hands-on. Yeah. With them it takes a lot of resources cuz you've gotta do a lot of little deals. Right. Um, could you talk about how, how you, how you put your market together like that?

Dave Charest: 7:52

This is from my perspective, right? But like, sure. Well you've been there for 12 years, so it should be a good one. It's funny because you mentioned like the B2B space, right? And how we are selling, uh, selling this to small businesses. And one of the interesting things about our business, Is because it's got such an affordable thing. A lot of the way we were able to sell it is more of a, it's a B2B with a, with a B2C kind of feel. Right. Right. Where, hey, it's $20 a month. Right. To get started. Right. Like, and you can do that and then, The goal would be right, that you're making that money back like, you know, many times over because you're using it to market your business and and create things. And so there's a really low barrier to entry from that perspective where when you think about traditionally in a B2B space where you're talking about. It's a bigger deal. There's a bigger time investment. You've gotta get approvals, you gotta do this thing. And it's, it's a longer sales cycle. Right? Right. And with us, I mean, you could start a trial, you can play around, you can see if it works, and then, you know, at the end, if you're ready, it's, you know, it, it's a, it's a 10 to $20 thing to start, right. Like, you know what I mean? And so I think that helped with a lot of things just in terms of like, what am I gonna lose if I try this. Right, right. And then I think the other piece of it is, is, like I mentioned earlier, just being in the local communities and showing people, you know, like even today, like I am, you know, traveling across the country speaking, we're at events where small businesses are and showing them how they can use this to their advantage. Right? Yeah. And so it's, it's that ongoing thing. Those things combined. There's, there's not a lot of risk to try it. Right. And you know, time and time again through those conversations that I have with people, it's like, oh my goodness. Like, you know, if I. I can't imagine if I didn't do this time and time again. I see. Which is also interesting, like if you think about just industry wide, if you know thinking how, how here we are in 2023 and we're still talking about email marketing regardless of the business, right? Right. Like with all of the new advances and technologies and all the talk about email is dead and all of that, which I'm, thank God that's not a track talk track anymore right now. But I mean really like it's the core of. Any online marketing strategy, right? I'm sure you're using email in some parts of what you're doing, right?

Chris Brandt: 10:09

Like not nearly as effectively as I should

Dave Charest: 10:12

see that's the thing, right? But, but, but I think that's what's interesting about it too, is that from my perspective, you can start simple, right? Do the foundational things and the, I was talking to somebody the other day and they're like, I send a weekly news, uh uh, a weekly newsletter and they haven't missed a Wednesday since 2007. Wow. And this person's in the real estate industry and no, no longer needs to prospect because of that email. He, he's, he closes a hundred deals a year because of the email that he sends weekly.

Chris Brandt: 10:43

We had a, another podcaster on here, uh, who, who does DNA today? Uh, Kira Dineen. And we, we were talking shop, you know, off camera. Uh, and she does a big email, uh, campaign. So she, that's like one of her big marketing components. Yeah. And like. And now I, you know, now that I'm getting that email all the time and like her constant touchpoints and stuff like that, I see the effect of it. And, you know, like I, I do have like my email list, but I don't, I'm not doing what I should. I, I, I probably have to, you know, like, so I can get a little $20 a month subscription that sorted out. But no, I mean, like, and I know for her she says it's, it, it helps tremendously. Um, and you know, I know it's like one of those marketing angles that I'm missing out and it's, it was on my to-do list for this year to make that work for me. Yeah. So, you know, it, it, it is, it is an important aspect of it. My wife has a small business. She sends those things out all the time, and that's kind of her primary marketing vehicle as well.

Dave Charest: 11:38

Yep. I mean, we've, we've talked to customers who are like, you know, depending on what I have going on, like it's depe determines whether or not we send the email or not, because it's like, if we have an event and we have to go do things, then I don't have people to be able to take the orders. From when we send the email. Right. But when we have time, I'll send it. And then I know we have people that, right. And so it's like a, it is just, uh, if you've got a product or service that people like, I mean, I think look, marketing isn't gonna save a bad product or service. Right? Right. But if you do that and you have that connection with people that likely, you know, right. Because they're in your local community. It's just that top of mind thing. Yeah. And if doing it, it's just a different feeling than I think, you know, the things that you do on social, I think those things are important, but there's something to that exchange of information where somebody has said, oh yeah, I want you to send me emails. Right. There's something psychological that happens there. Yeah. Uh, and then the fact that you're receiving that thing in a more private space, right. Like there's something to that. Makes that connection stronger.

Chris Brandt: 12:38

I'm a sucker for that stuff too. There's a few, there's a few emails that I get that I'm like, there's, uh, you know, reverb.com Yeah which is, you know, a Chicago company here, but you know, they have like all the audio gear and all that stuff and like, I can't not look at it when it comes. And then like, then they hit me with all the, like the, you know, the plug-ins for Final Cup Pro and the audio plugins and I'm like, just like, oh, I, I, I have to like sometimes just skip them and, and. Not look at them, because if I do, I'm gonna be like, oh, I got, I totally need that. Here you go. Here's the credit card. I totally need that. And I'll never use, it's like I'll buy something that I never use. Right.

Dave Charest: 13:11

I know. Uh, my, we were laughing over here. It's like there's like a microphone everywhere. Why is there so many microphones? It's like, microphone have good to me too. I've got a problem.

Chris Brandt: 13:21

I know. It's why, what they call like gear acquisition syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. I got that bad. I got that. They, they know who they're, they know who they're picking on. Yeah. Well, it, it, I mean it's interesting cuz like, you know, if you think about 1995, I mean this is like when people were first starting to discover web browsers. Sure. Like the web was just kind of a thing that was so like the killer app on the internet at that time was, was email. Right? I mean, and now you've kind of evolved. You know, just the, the primitive state of email. Sure, yeah. Back then before even Gmail existed, right? Yep. Uh, Yahoo was, was probably just one page. Every, all the links fit on one page. You know, that was before even Google, probably 1995 or, you know, um, So, so that's a long time ago, but now, and, and now you've kind of made it in the transition and you're doing like social media and, you know, event campaigns and things like that. Could you talk about like that, uh, how, how that evolved?

Dave Charest: 14:15

Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the things that I think we're always looking to understand or know is, is like, what are the things that, what are the ways that small businesses get business, right? And so it's looking at, okay, yes, email, of course, right? But also, Uh, events, right? Like when you think about the things you do, it's, it's like, oh yeah, you're with people, right? And so like, being able to manage those events and gather people and, and then even sell things through that event, like all of that is important. I mean, even today when you're thinking of, um, you know, sms, right? So that's another area where I'm sure we'll, we'll talk about a bit too, but like, that's, that's kind of like the, that's like the new thing right now, right? That there's really an opportunity. Um, for, for businesses to take advantage of that. And then of course there's the social part of it. And so it's like, these are kind of all the ways we think about it in the terms of like, how can we make it easier for our customers to communicate with their most important audiences, right? And. And these are the ways that just business gets done. And so like, how can we be there to help them, um, facilitate that process? And I think that's really where it starts to come in. Like, these are the ways you do that. So how can we help? You know,

Chris Brandt: 15:28

I mentioned in the intro that, you know, one of your taglines is helping the small stand tall, right? Sure. Um, and I know that you, you, you, one of your, one of the things that you're doing for small business is providing a lot of education resources for them too, cuz they gotta, like you mentioned, they're not marketers by choice. They're, you know, by necessity. Yeah. What, what are some of the, like the, the, the tips that you have for small business?

Dave Charest: 15:52

I mentioned a little bit earlier this idea of really focusing on experience, right? Like, I think this is the big opportunity here, and so how can you make people feel good no matter where they're connecting with you. So whether that's online, whether that's offline, right? So if they're connecting with you on social, if they're coming to your website, how do you just create this great experience? Right? Right. And that is the type of thing that makes people talk about you or feel good about that. Right? And those are o often. Opportune times too to say like, Hey, you know, you're having this really great experience. Why don't you join our email list? Right. Or, you know, get on this. And I wouldn't necessarily say, join our email list. Right? Nobody wakes up saying, I can't wait to get more email. Right. It's, it's not that, right? But it's like, Hey, you know, did you know we have this, where we do this thing? Right. What is the thing of value that you can offer? And, you know, in doing that, that gives you the opportunity to stay connected and engage people, right? So it's, it's thinking about it through that lens of like, you're creating a great experience. You're kind of enticing them to stay connected with you. You're engaging with people and that is keeping your business top of mind and bringing people back to you. And then you add that social component where you start to do that on, you know, on social. Those engagements start to become things that create visibility for your business and help you reach new people. And that brings more people to your door. And so you've got this kind of thing that, you know, for lack of a better term, we call it kind of like engagement marketing, right? So that's kind of how you think about it, right? So like, okay, so that's happening. So then what do you do to really think through that? So I think one, it's really one focusing on that experience. I think it's also thinking about. Keeping it simple, right? I think as humans, I've been having this conversation a lot lately. Like, we try to overcomplicate everything, right? Like even, you know, as we're talking here, you're like, yeah, it's on my list of things to do. And you're probably thinking,

Chris Brandt: 17:36

I'm always complicating things,

Dave Charest: 17:36

right? You're, you're probably thinking like, all right, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And really, I just told you about somebody who closes a hundred deal deals a year by just sending a weekly newsletter that in some instances is like three or four lines, right? Right. Like, that's all he does, right? And so, It's like, keep it simple, be consistent with it. And I think that's the big lesson here, right? I. As I'm sure you're learning through the years of doing this podcast, right, that it's showing up. It's having an episode every week, it's, or I don't know what your frequency is, but it's like doing that and it's being in the places where your people are. It's doing things consistently that really has the biggest impact, right? It's not about doing something for. A couple of weeks and saying like, that didn't work, right. It's like, no, you gotta keep showing up. Right? And so those things combined, right? And, and don't try to do everything right. I think it depends on where you are. Like, like some people are early adopters, right? Like they're jump into everything new and that's great. If you can manage that, but a lot of people aren't that, and so I feel like there's a lot of pressure sometimes too, to say, oh, there's this new thing. Now I've gotta learn this other thing. And this is huge when it comes to social, right? Like I'm not a hundred percent knocking social because I think it's important, but Right. If you think about how much energy it demands from you,

Chris Brandt: 18:52

it's enormous.

Dave Charest: 18:53

Right? It does it for its benefit, not necessarily yours. Right?

Chris Brandt: 18:58

A hundred percent.

Dave Charest: 18:59

And so that's where I feel like, you know, one, I. A lot of businesses think, well, I'll just do social, and it's like, no, you need a website for one. You need something that you own out there, right? Yeah. That's taking up space on the internet. But two, you need to be growing your list. You need to be getting people to opt into the email, to the text marketing, because social doesn't necessarily care about you. Right. Right. And you want to be able, it does it at all. Right. And so I think that's the, a lot of the things that you see people fall into is like, oh yeah, social and then, and then unknowingly knowing that like, oh, I posted it on social. And then like, why didn't nobody, why didn't nobody see it? Well, it's because it's all algorithms and it's not like it used to be where you could post something and see everything everybody did. Right. And so, yeah,

Chris Brandt: 19:42

you're screaming in a crowd,

Dave Charest: 19:44

right? Right. And so, and depending on what's going on, it could be a very small crowd or like, you know, You just don't know. And so I think those are some of the things to really think about, right? Like, don't rely on social alone. Um, you know, get people onto your list so you have a way to contact them directly. You're in charge of that. Um, keep it simple to start. And then as you start to see results, then you can start to add new things. Those are the exciting things to me. Like my hope is always like, here I'm gonna show you some fundamental things to do. You get started and you start to see it work, right? Then you can go about your business and do the other things you need to do. Or maybe you'll say, Ooh, what else could I do? And then we can start to look at like, all right, let's get a little bit more advanced. And then I think there's another level and that to that when we're talking about like AI and data and like things like that, right? And like then you can start to do some really, you know, wild stuff. And I think. Okay, cool. Like if you get to that point, great, but guess what? Right? You don't have to, you can still be success, uh, successful without that,

Chris Brandt: 20:42

I think you're very spot on. You know, like with the website or at least some platform that you can drive, you know, your people back to it because you're, you're right, social media doesn't care about you. And I'll, and I'll tell you from my experience, it's like you can't. Do all of it. There's too much social media out there. Yeah. For, you know, a small business to, to manage. It's just really to do it, do it in a way that's quality. You know, it has quality that really is tapping that affinity group that is, you know, associated with your brand. Right. Um, and, and, and if you look at it too, not having that control over your audience. Like I, you know, I worry all the time. I mean, we've spent years building an audience on YouTube. Yeah. Years. You know, that was enormous amount of work. And you know, YouTube could just arbitrarily decide like one day, like, oh, this channel, uh, you know, we're going to kill your account. I mean, I've had that happen on other social media platforms where like, yeah. For no reason. You know, like you're just sitting there. I haven't even, like I had, I got my. Account permanently banned on Reddit, and I hadn't even posted anything like, what did I do? What? You know, so like you could go through this appeal and it's like, this is a permanent ban. I'm like, what? For what? Yeah. You know? And like they never tell you, and then they just reinstate your account and you're like, okay, well if that was my primary mode of business, that would've been devastating.

Dave Charest: 21:57

Yeah. And I think that's the Well, that's a great point. Right? And I think that's the other thing too, is that. You can't really ever contact anybody either to get help with that. Nobody. Right. So you're just kind of like, what? I don't even know what the problem is, so how can I fix it or do anything. Right. And so that sends you down a rabbit hole trying to figure out what the heck is going on. Right.

Chris Brandt: 22:16

Well, yeah. I had an account problem with YouTube between Google and YouTube. Because this, even though the same company, they're not the same company. Right? Yeah. And it literally took me maybe five months. To sort out that problem. Yeah. And like at the whole time, my account was kind of owned by a di by the wrong account. Yeah. And I'm like, nobody was there to fix it. Nobody would help me. Yeah. I couldn't talk to anybody, you know, it was, it, it was really frustrating and you know, like when you put all that effort in and not having the ability to fix a problem. Wow. And you look at TikTok, you know, look at the people who are making their livings on TikTok now. And you, you know, like the government could arbitrarily just decide Nope, TikTok's not a thing anymore.

Dave Charest: 22:55

Again, this is like jumps into that early adopter thing, right? Like, there are people that are gonna see some success with these things just by the nature of getting involved with it early. Um, right. And I think that's, that's fine, but I think it's always, again, You know, I, I have, I've just recently even just started my own newsletter again because I wanted to start from scratch, right? To see like, okay, like I'm gonna do some things and I wanna share those with, you know, cuz it's a marketing newsletter and I wanna share that with you and, and see like, you know, what's going on today cuz it's different, right? Because like, I got started in this game in like 2006, right? Where, you know, I'm creating content, I've got a newsletter, but there wasn't a lot of people doing it. You know, compared to what's going on today. And if you think about how much is going on today, it's like, well, it's overload, right? And so like, okay, so what's different now? Like, what are you gotta do? And so it's an interesting exercise just to even make sure that you're, you know, uh, experiencing it. And I think that's what helped me early on in my career is that I had my own business for a while that I learned very quickly. I was not good at running my own business. I was good at what I did, but I wasn't good at like the business pieces of it, which, you know, led me to Constant Contact where I could do the things I was good at and have those other things kind of taken care of, right? And so it's wild how quickly things change. Um, and yet, and yet the things that stay the same are the things that make people. And how you connect and build relationships with people. I think relationships are key, right? Like those things are the things that stay the same, and it's just figuring out how do you create those meaningful relationships with people with new technology. Right. I think it's the, well, speaking of which comes to that. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Brandt: 24:40

Speaking of which, I mean, you know, we talk, we've just spent a whole lot of time talking about how our hard it is to Yeah. You know, kind of target all these platforms. But there is, you know, we were talking before about one tool that's kind of emerged just very recently. Yeah. That can really help you to manage a lot of that. And that's AI, right?

Dave Charest: 24:57

Yeah. It's, uh, It's an interesting thing that that has now, I think, gotten to, I'd be curious to, you know, your opinion on this too. Right? But I think it's like really gotten to this point where, okay, like you can really start to see where it can be helpful. And I think there's a different lens that you look at it in, right? As a create as a creator, right? There's one way that you could look at it. Um, and then as a non-creative person, I think there's another value there for that type of person, right? That I think is interesting. When you look at. Like, like I, I'll say Siri right, for example. Right. Looking at that. Mm-hmm. And like, I've tried multiple times to use it and I'm like, I'm gonna make a commitment to trying to like use this as an everyday thing. And every time I've tried, I get so frustrated because it never does what I want it to do. Right, right. And then when you think,

Chris Brandt: 25:47

I find it becomes a, a very expensive, you know, egg timer.

Dave Charest: 25:50

Yeah, well, exactly. Like, and sometimes it doesn't even do that. Right? No, it's fine.

Chris Brandt: 25:55

It doesn't understand my wife's voice,

Dave Charest: 25:57

right? It's like, okay, so that's not helpful to me. But you, you, the promise of it is exciting, right? And then it just doesn't get there. But I think we're at a turning point now where you're seeing with like the ChatGPT stuff coming out and all of that, that it's like, okay, this is doing some things that are a little bit more interesting. Although I do still think that there is too much complexity involved with it still, if you're not the type of person who wants to figure out if you're not the early adopter, right? If you're not the even, I like, I've played around with it, but I'm still stuck with like, all right, what's the. What's the right way to prompt this, to get the proper output that I would need. Right. And then I also think it's like, I, I like it for kind of the quicker things, right? Like, oh, I've got a description. Hey, can you make this shorter? Right? Like, uh, gimme an idea for a, uh, you know, my wife and I do a podcast and I've used it to say like, Hey, gimme some ideas for some things we could talk about. Yeah. And, you know, what, what could we title that show? Right? Like that type of thing. And it's great. Right. But there's so much more it can do, which depending on how you look at it, can get scary or be exciting. Right. And I think it's a little bit of both. Like I'm kind of on the, I'm a, I'm an optimist, like by heart, right? And my right. And so my wife is a little bit on the other side where she's a, she's, she teaches college. And like to her it's like, oh no, this is like a whole thing that creates a problem because now you've gotta understand like our kids using it to write essays, to do pep papers. Like it opens up a whole can of worms where I think, depending on where you sit really determines how you might feel about it. Right, right, right. And so, but I think at the end of the day, like again, I'm gonna lean on the side, like we're gonna use it for good. And there are some amazing things that can help you with.

Chris Brandt: 27:49

Well, I mean, I, I'm not, I don't tend to be the, uh, you know, optimist. I tend to be lean to more of the catastrophist. Um, you know, because I've done so much disaster work in my, in my career, I suppose, you know? Yeah. And dealt with security and things like that. But I, but I too am very, you know, like I have an optimistic position about AI, first of all. It is like Thanos, it is inevitable, right? Yeah. Whether you like it or not, that that genie is out of the bottle and it is here and it's not going to go away. And whether or not, you know, like the whole Elon Musk, you know, which I think was, you know, a lot of. You know, bitter, you know, exchanges, you know, there for him with open ai. And I think that sort of clouds his, his, his view on, you know, sort of that open letter that he wrote about, you know, putting AI back in the bottle. But I mean, the reality is all the open source tools are out there. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's not going to go away. So here we are. So we need to figure out how to understand it. Yeah. Well, And how do, how to use it? Well, because I'll tell you, I use, I use ChatGPT4 constantly. I use Mid Journey, I use all kinds of AI tools all the time. I mean, it's like, I, I joke that GPT four is my new best friend. Um, that said, you have to really understand what it's doing. Right. To be able to use it effectively because like you say, I, I use it for titles. I have it tweaked descriptions. That prep email that I I sent to you, I, I ran my old prep email through it. And that's what, that was the new prep email that it, it, yep, it did. Um, you know, it's like, I've also done things that are more interpretive, like, um, you know, interpret this piece of literature in the context of this. And particularly because ChatGPT4 isn't connected to the internet. It's it, it has to make stuff up cuz it's generative. Right. It gives you an answer whether or not it knows what the answer is or not. Yeah. And you know, I start looking through it and I'm like, this is not right at all. But it sounds right, you know? And that's a really scary thing cuz that's kind of like the security business. A false sense of security is worse than having you know, no security.

Dave Charest: 29:55

Right. Well, so it's funny because you, that you say that because I remember again, playing around with a thing and trying to get some ideas or like ways to write some things about the podcast my wife and I do, and I'm laughing because it was like just making up stuff, right? Like you say, and I'm like, I'm, and I, I'd then I find myself, I'm writing back to it guy I'm like, that's not correct at all. Why are you just making things up? And it's like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that. And it's like, whoa. And so like, I think that, that's kind of the point, right? Like I, I, I,

Chris Brandt: 30:25

you can prompt it so that it won't do that though too. Well, so, but you have to know how to prompt it.

Dave Charest: 30:30

Well, this is what I'm saying, right? Yeah. And so now you're in this situation where now you've gotta really understand and there's not a, I'd be curious, maybe offline we could talk about like, you know, where are some of the places that you go for stuff, right? But like, I think now you've got this whole open up your browser and there's like a ChatGPT expert there, like telling you how to make, you know, money with ChatGPT. Yeah. And like how to prompt it. And then I have even gone through, you know, again, I'm trying to test this stuff out. So I would go through some of those prompts. And I'm like, yeah, but it looks good on LinkedIn, but it actually doesn't work like that, right? Like it actually doesn't do that. And I, you know, following the thing, and it gave me the same output that you got in your example, but my thing had nothing to do with your example, right? Like, and so it's like, right. And so like you do have to be careful, which I guess gets me to the point of it's definitely at a place where it can be helpful, but I don't think it's at a place where it's necessarily gonna be like, my biggest fear in all of this is that what we don't need is uninspired content kind of flooding the internet. Right? Right. Like we don't need the content mill. Like now I've already got it enough. Right. Like truly Right. And I think that's,

Chris Brandt: 31:39

we're all full up with wrong information.

Dave Charest: 31:40

Yeah. Well that's a whole other, that's a whole other thing. But like just stuff that is just noise. Right. And I think Right. You know, I think if you approach it from that idea of using it to be supportive to the things that you're trying to do, I think that's a right place for it right now. Absolutely. And I think it definitely helps those folks that are non-creative people, right? Yeah. Where maybe it's easy for you and I to. Write an email or think about what is the structure of this conversation gonna be and that type of thing. But other people are like, ah, or you, like, I don't even know how to get started with that. And particularly when that's not your thing. Like, I think that's where it's gonna be most valuable to people.

Chris Brandt: 32:15

Like descriptions are a great example of like, you know, I'll write a, our title for YouTube video and what I'll, I'll, I'll give it, you know, like I have a written description that I wrote and I'll give that as the prompt. Do I write a title for this? Yeah. And then say, you know, gimme three or four options. And then it'll do different things. And sometimes I'll take pieces from each one and combine them into, you know, into a greater whole. Um, but I think, you know, you know, getting back to the email thing, you know, yeah. For a lot of people writing emails is really tough and you know, like just doing it well and with a marketing flare to it. You know, being able to, as a small business go in and say, Hey, write me an e a marketing email about this. And then having it write that for you, and then you look through it and tweak it a little bit. You know, that's, that's an enormous time saver. And the, the ability to, to like shave that kind of time off and, and communicate more with your, your audience is, I think hugely valuable.

Dave Charest: 33:07

Yeah, I, I mean, I, uh, agree a hundred percent and I think that's where. You know, as I mentioned that idea of like knowing how to prompt it and knowing what to do, I think there's, the opportunity comes in where we even make that easier because of the use cases you're gonna do. Right. So in your example, right, if it's particular to write an email, well, how do you remove the. Write it in this style, write it like, you know, how do you get it to use your voice? How do you get, how do we remove all of like teaching it to do that so that it knows how to do that? And you're just inputting the minor things, right? I need an email about this on this day, on this thing. Yeah. And then it gives you something that is like, oh, that's actually really good and I can manipulate that a little bit if I need to. And I think that's where. The magic starts to happen is how do we make it more accessible? And I don't have to be a prompt engineer in order to do it. Right.

Chris Brandt: 33:58

Well, I I think we're in the, the 1995 of, uh, yeah. AI right now, right?

Dave Charest: 34:03

Yeah, exactly right. It's like, what?

Chris Brandt: 34:06

But I mean, I, I think this is as substantially, maybe even more so than, you know, the development of the web was. I mean, this is, this is a hugely impactful change.

Dave Charest: 34:16

Yeah. I mean, and, and, and look, uh, to be fair here, like this is like way above my like, mental capacity, right? In terms of how you even create this thing, right? Like I'm just talking about it from like a user perspective and like what the possibility is from there. And so, yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be an interesting, uh, interesting little trip. We're on here.

Chris Brandt: 34:36

We live in interesting times. Well, so, so, so tell me like, what, what's next for Constant Contact? Where do you guys go from?

Dave Charest: 34:44

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think for us we're, it's about asking the right questions, right? And I think one of the things that we're always kind of thinking about is, you know, right. How do we make it easier for our customers to communicate with their most important audience? As I mentioned earlier, I think then, you know, as some of the themes coming out of this, like how do we make that intuitive for people and then. How do we really start to expose them to those things that they can do next, right? Like, that's how we're really thinking about things. And then where that takes us right is, is really kind of determined by what's going on and what they need to accomplish. But, um, I think those are the types of questions that we ask. Like, how can we be the place where small businesses, whether they're marketers or they're not, have the tools that they need in one place and then. They become not a burden like I like, like you said, right? Like, Hey, I have to, I have to go do more on my email. And so I think oftentimes businesses in particular don't think about the idea that like, okay, as a business owner, You need to one, make the decision to do the thing. Then you've gotta take the time to figure out the thing. Then you've gotta create the thing. Then you get like, there's so many steps involved. It's not as simple as going like, yeah, I'll do that. Right? Like, and so how do we make the 10 steps in between? So simple that. It becomes less steps for one, right? Right. But then the time to getting something going that you're seeing results from makes sense. Right? And so I think that's the big thing when you think of small businesses, it's like, all right, I've got 15 minutes. Am I gonna go, you know, take out the trash that I know needs to be done? Or am I gonna go figure out some marketing stuff where I don't. Right. It's either I got the trash out or I have a marketing thing that I don't really know what's happening, right? And so choices and so, right, you're gonna prioritize that thing, you know is gonna have an outcome. And I think that's where. We want to help people understand that, hey, here, if you do these things, here's the type of outcome you can expect and this is gonna be worthwhile for your time investment. And I think that's where we wanna shorten that, that path to success.

Chris Brandt: 36:54

Well, and I think that's really valuable to small businesses because the problem with small businesses is that. You know, you go out and you market a lot, you get a big pipeline, then you get busy working on the pipeline. So you stop marketing and then the, then the pipeline dries up and you're like, oh my God, I gotta market again. And

Dave Charest: 37:07

that it's like a vicious cycle, right?

Chris Brandt: 37:09

Yeah. And you, you're never, you're never ahead of the game. So yeah, making that easier is gonna be, A, a win For sure. I'm sure. Um, well, you know, I just wanna say thanks so much for coming on. This has been, it's been great chatting with you. I, I know like, uh, we, we touched on a lot of fun, fun topics for me.

Dave Charest: 37:25

So yeah, Chris, I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's a good conversation. Thank you.

Chris Brandt: 37:29

So, if, if people wanna find con constant contact and they want to try it out, where should it go?

Dave Charest: 37:33

Uh, constantcontact.com

Chris Brandt: 37:36

All right. Well thanks so much for being on and, uh, we'll see you next time.

Dave Charest: 37:40

Awesome. Thanks Chris.

Chris Brandt: 37:41

Thanks for watching, I'd love to hear from you in the comments and if you could please, please, please hit that subscribe button and click on that like button, cuz that, you know, helps drive that algorithm to a happy place. And I will see you in the next one.